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the beckoning silence | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 30.10.07 21:32 Uhr |
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Auf diese Nachricht antworten!  |
I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the rescuers
did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot which
had caught in the caribineer
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the beckoning silence | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 31.10.07 11:39 Uhr |
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"barry makepeace" <barry.makepeace@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:%xMVi.20260$uH.5661@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
> Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the
rescuers
> did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot which
> had caught in the caribineer
Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
above him from which it could be lowered. (You can't just "send a rope
up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss rescuers
(and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and were
able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.
It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was inevitably
based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
story first-hand. However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an exceptional
individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety. I've
always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to see
why Joe Simpson feels the same way.
Steve P
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the beckoning silence | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 31.10.07 13:37 Uhr |
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"Steve Pardoe" <steveSP@AMpardoes.com> wrote in message
news:X4ydnTKVzq3SxrXaRVnyjAA@pipex.net...
> "barry makepeace" <barry.makepeace@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:%xMVi.20260$uH.5661@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> > I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
> > Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the
> rescuers
> > did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot
which
> > had caught in the caribineer
>
> Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
> which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
> above him from which it could be lowered. (You can't just "send a rope
> up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
>
> It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss
rescuers
> (and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and were
> able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.
Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.
> It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was inevitably
> based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
> story first-hand. However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an exceptional
> individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety. I've
> always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to
see
> why Joe Simpson feels the same way.
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's own
website, haven't time to read it just now...
[externer Link]
The Indie at [externer Link] gives a
fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.
HTH,
> Steve P
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the beckoning silence | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 31.10.07 18:44 Uhr |
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| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
The television show said he pulled himself up the rope he was hanging from
and cut the rope on both of his companions. They said he still had not
enough rope so he had to unplait the rope to reach the rescuers. It was not
strong enough to take his weight so they attached a new rope to it which he
pulled up. This rope was still not long enough so they knotted another rope
to it which caught in the caribineer. Surely you would knot another rope to
the bottom of this rope making sure he was able to undo the knot and attach
above him.
eveSP@AMpardoes.com> wrote in message
news:gKWdnV5In5pq67XanZ2dnUVZ8qKvnZ2d@pipex.net...
> "Steve Pardoe" <steveSP@AMpardoes.com> wrote in message
> news:X4ydnTKVzq3SxrXaRVnyjAA@pipex.net...
>> "barry makepeace" <barry.makepeace@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:%xMVi.20260$uH.5661@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
>> > I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
>> > Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the
>> rescuers
>> > did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot
> which
>> > had caught in the caribineer
>>
>> Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
>> which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
>> above him from which it could be lowered. (You can't just "send a rope
>> up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
>>
>> It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss
> rescuers
>> (and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and
>> were
>> able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.
>
> Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.
>
>> It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was
>> inevitably
>> based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
>> story first-hand. However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an
>> exceptional
>> individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety. I've
>> always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to
> see
>> why Joe Simpson feels the same way.
>
> Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's
> own
> website, haven't time to read it just now...
>
> [externer Link]
>
> The Indie at [externer Link] gives a
> fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.
>
> HTH,
>
>> Steve P
>
>
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the beckoning silence | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 31.10.07 18:57 Uhr |
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Having read the article I think maybe the part about him unravelling the
rope to make it longer may have been fiction. It was a very moving story. I
am not a mountaineer myself but this part of the story i could not
understand.
"Steve Pardoe" <steveSP@AMpardoes.com> wrote in message
news:gKWdnV5In5pq67XanZ2dnUVZ8qKvnZ2d@pipex.net...
> "Steve Pardoe" <steveSP@AMpardoes.com> wrote in message
> news:X4ydnTKVzq3SxrXaRVnyjAA@pipex.net...
>> "barry makepeace" <barry.makepeace@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:%xMVi.20260$uH.5661@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
>> > I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
>> > Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the
>> rescuers
>> > did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot
> which
>> > had caught in the caribineer
>>
>> Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
>> which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
>> above him from which it could be lowered. (You can't just "send a rope
>> up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
>>
>> It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss
> rescuers
>> (and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and
>> were
>> able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.
>
> Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.
>
>> It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was
>> inevitably
>> based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
>> story first-hand. However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an
>> exceptional
>> individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety. I've
>> always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to
> see
>> why Joe Simpson feels the same way.
>
> Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's
> own
> website, haven't time to read it just now...
>
> [externer Link]
>
> The Indie at [externer Link] gives a
> fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.
>
> HTH,
>
>> Steve P
>
>
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the beckoning silence | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 01.11.07 02:02 Uhr |
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Hi Steve,
I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil
without threading the rope through a carabiner.
If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an
extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't trust
his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.
The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the
rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with
one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one
handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of
hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.
Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that he
would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the rope
to continue abseiling!
Carol Haynes
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the beckoning silence | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 01.11.07 18:50 Uhr |
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| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
That sounds like what happened, but it was very vague on tv and I suspect
the end of the program was a bit of fiction. I know we will never know
exactly what happened. I have watched so much tv lately where the program
has been spoilt by not giving the true facts.
I have never climbed before so I am not very knowledgeable about this.
It just was so sad that this very brave guy died so close to rescue.
I started thinking about it and decided to try and find a newsgroup where i
could find out exactly what did happen.
many thanks
barry makepeace
"Carol Haynes" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:68mdnTGIoPhVuLTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com...
> Hi Steve,
>
> I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil
> without threading the rope through a carabiner.
>
> If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an
> extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't
> trust his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.
>
> The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the
> rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with
> one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one
> handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of
> hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.
>
> Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that
> he would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the
> rope to continue abseiling!
>
> Carol Haynes
>
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the beckoning silence | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 01.11.07 19:49 Uhr |
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| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
barry makepeace wrote:
> That sounds like what happened, but it was very vague on tv and I suspect
> the end of the program was a bit of fiction. I know we will never know
> exactly what happened. I have watched so much tv lately where the program
> has been spoilt by not giving the true facts.
> I have never climbed before so I am not very knowledgeable about this.
> It just was so sad that this very brave guy died so close to rescue.
> I started thinking about it and decided to try and find a newsgroup where i
> could find out exactly what did happen.
> many thanks
> barry makepeace
> "Carol Haynes" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:68mdnTGIoPhVuLTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com...
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil
>> without threading the rope through a carabiner.
>>
>> If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an
>> extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't
>> trust his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.
>>
>> The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the
>> rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with
>> one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one
>> handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of
>> hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.
>>
>> Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that
>> he would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the
>> rope to continue abseiling!
>>
>> Carol Haynes
>>
>
>
I think the rescuers were expecting Kurz to use the classic abseil
method - rope between the legs, up across the chest and shoulder, free
end held in one hand and used to control friction and the descent speed.
It is possible to abseil over a knot in the rope using this method.
But Kurz only had one hand working, and it's relatively easy to fall out
of the classic abseil if you can't steady yourself with the other hand.
So he used the karabiner on his waist-length (not a modern sit sling,
just a length of rope wrapped round the waist several times and tied) -
that way he was always hanging from the krab. But the knot was too
bulky to fit through, and jammed.
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