 |
Newsgroup - uk.rec.climbing |
| |
Diese Inhalte werden aus dem Usenet dargestellt und gehören nicht zu alpinisten.info
Es wird keine Haftung für fremde Inhalte übernommen (siehe Impressum) |
| |
 Zurück zur Übersicht |
 |
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 22.05.07 18:50 Uhr |
|
|
Auf diese Nachricht antworten!  |
Previously known as the Adventure Centre, renamed the Edinburgh
International Climbing Arena after the takeover by Edinburgh Leisure,
this is finally opening to the public after sundry delays on Friday
25th May. It has in fact been open to climbers with restricted
facilities and hours for several weeks, and is now closed pending the
final official opening.
Their official web site also seems to be afflicted with delays, since
it doesn't yet know about this opening :-)
[externer Link]
The details can be found in this Edinburgh Leisure newsletter, which
seems to be accurate apart from the spelling of "renovations: :-)
[externer Link]
Note that that this opening weekend of 25-28 May features all sorts of
special fun events for kids, which some grown ups may prefer to avoid
:-)
As a great enthusiast for this project I'm doing my bit to improve the
publicity for this opening by advertising their Aerial Assault Course,
previously known before Edinburgh Leisure's takeover as the Skyride of
the Adventure Centre. Although it tends to be seen by parents as
something for the kids, I've taken several older adults round it, all
of whom have been surprised and impressed by how much they enjoyed it.
So here you go, a photographic tour of the Aerial Assault:
[externer Link]
(It should be noted that although some of these photographs were taken
on the Skyride itself (as it then was), taking a camera on the Aerial
Assault would require special permission and prior arrangement which
would probably require some attestation of both photographic and rope
access skills, and the new "improved safety facilities" probably means
is no longer possible anyway :-)
Apart from the generally poor publicity which this place has always
suffered from, it has also suffered from poor public service
access. The nearest bus for example is the Lothian Busses X48 which
runs from Waverley to Ratho. You have to get off at Ratho Bridge and
take a twenty minute walk along the unsignposted north side canal path
to the place. It is to be hoped that by the time they re-open on the
25th May the stairs up from the canal path to the Arena will have a
more encouraging signpost than the "Construction Site! Keep Out!
Danger! Falling Rocks!" with which they have been encouraging canal
path entrants to date :-)
Bus access will improve, because they have surfaced the car park and
built a bus stop in it, and have got agreement for the X48 service to
be extended to it, but AFAIK there isn't yet a date for when that will
start operating.
Cyclists may like to know that you can cycle out to it on the Union
Canal path from Fountainbridge in Edinburgh.
--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[[externer Link] ]
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 09:43 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
On 22 May, 17:50, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> Previously known as the Adventure Centre, renamed the Edinburgh
> International Climbing Arena after the takeover by Edinburgh Leisure,
> this is finally opening to the public after sundry delays on Friday
> 25th May. It has in fact been open to climbers with restricted
> facilities and hours for several weeks, and is now closed pending the
> final official opening.
>
> Their official web site also seems to be afflicted with delays, since
> it doesn't yet know about this opening :-)
>
> [externer Link]
>
> The details can be found in this Edinburgh Leisure newsletter, which
> seems to be accurate apart from the spelling of "renovations: :-)
>
> [externer Link]
>
> Note that that this opening weekend of 25-28 May features all sorts of
> special fun events for kids, which some grown ups may prefer to avoid
> :-)
>
> As a great enthusiast for this project I'm doing my bit to improve the
> publicity for this opening by advertising their Aerial Assault Course,
> previously known before Edinburgh Leisure's takeover as the Skyride of
> the Adventure Centre. Although it tends to be seen by parents as
> something for the kids, I've taken several older adults round it, all
> of whom have been surprised and impressed by how much they enjoyed it.
>
> So here you go, a photographic tour of the Aerial Assault:
>
> [externer Link]
>
> (It should be noted that although some of these photographs were taken
> on the Skyride itself (as it then was), taking a camera on the Aerial
> Assault would require special permission and prior arrangement which
> would probably require some attestation of both photographic and rope
> access skills, and the new "improved safety facilities" probably means
> is no longer possible anyway :-)
>
> Apart from the generally poor publicity which this place has always
> suffered from, it has also suffered from poor public service
> access. The nearest bus for example is the Lothian Busses X48 which
> runs from Waverley to Ratho. You have to get off at Ratho Bridge and
> take a twenty minute walk along the unsignposted north side canal path
> to the place. It is to be hoped that by the time they re-open on the
> 25th May the stairs up from the canal path to the Arena will have a
> more encouraging signpost than the "Construction Site! Keep Out!
> Danger! Falling Rocks!" with which they have been encouraging canal
> path entrants to date :-)
>
> Bus access will improve, because they have surfaced the car park and
> built a bus stop in it, and have got agreement for the X48 service to
> be extended to it, but AFAIK there isn't yet a date for when that will
> start operating.
>
> Cyclists may like to know that you can cycle out to it on the Union
> Canal path from Fountainbridge in Edinburgh.
>
> --
> Chris Malcolm c...@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
> IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
> [[externer Link] ]
I live relatively close to the EICA and have recently seen a new local
bus service on the Newbridge / Wilkieston road (B7030). So 'new' that
they are only now putting up bus stops and I'm not finding anything in
Google on the service. The bus is going to St John's Hospital which I
did notice but I didn't register the company running it
unfortunately. As there is a good bus services to both Newbridge and
Wilkieston this looks useful.
I'll see if I can find some more information on this and post it when
I do.
Rob
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 11:00 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
In article <f2v708$csv$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>,
Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> So here you go, a photographic tour of the Aerial Assault:
>
> [externer Link]
In concept this is remarkably like a place near Bourg St.Maurice except
that that is constructed on a steep hillside in a forest and you have to
do all your safety yourself (find an orange cable, clip on your two
orange carabiners on cowtails; find a blue cable, clip on your blue
pulley and then the orange crabs behind; never take both crabs off at
once). You'd never get it past the safety regs here.
Sam
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 14:06 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
Sam Wilson wrote:
> In concept this is remarkably like a place near Bourg St.Maurice except
> that that is constructed on a steep hillside in a forest and you have to
> do all your safety yourself <snip> You'd never get it past the safety
regs here.
There's nothing in any regulations to prevent it here, its basically just
indoor via ferrata. I guess what may cause a problem is getting insurance
(with economically feasible premiums).
It would mean you'd have to require the customers either to be 'competent'
or keep them under close supervision though. This is only the same as for
the climbing, but unlike the climbing experienced people aren't the target
market.
Sean
x
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 14:38 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
In ed.general Sean <sean@nospamtaverymuch.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson wrote:
>> In concept this is remarkably like a place near Bourg St.Maurice except
>> that that is constructed on a steep hillside in a forest and you have to
>> do all your safety yourself <snip> You'd never get it past the safety
> regs here.
> There's nothing in any regulations to prevent it here, its basically just
> indoor via ferrata. I guess what may cause a problem is getting insurance
> (with economically feasible premiums).
> It would mean you'd have to require the customers either to be 'competent'
> or keep them under close supervision though. This is only the same as for
> the climbing, but unlike the climbing experienced people aren't the target
> market.
In the EICA Ratho Aerial Assault (previously Skyride) the harnesses
are secured to the safety trolleys by lockable carabiners done up with
a spanner. It's hard to imagine how someone could become detached &
fall. As to getting into difficulties, there's a parallel free track
for use by staff on which staff can move very rapidly to someone in
trouble. Don't know if it's a requirement, but there tend to be staff
close at hand on the track if there's anyone a bit wobbly going round
it. From the viewpoint of an amateur student of rope access technology
the whole thing looks to be of the highest professional standards.
--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[[externer Link] ]
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 16:27 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
Chris Malcolm wrote:
> From the viewpoint of an amateur student of rope access technology
> the whole thing looks to be of the highest professional standards.
I wasn't suggesting otherwise for a moment. I was commenting on the Bourg
St.Maurice installation Sam mentioned, which does depend on a degree of
competence from the user. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
> As to getting into difficulties, there's a parallel free track
> for use by staff on which staff can move very rapidly to someone
> in trouble.
Cool, I wondered what the arrangements were for rescue. (Which in this case
I guess covers a spectrum from a full-on medical emergency down to a bit of
a gentle chivvy and some reassurance.)
Sean
x
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 15:02 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
In article <f31an4$9in$1@news.freedom2surf.net>,
Sean <sean@nospamtaverymuch.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson wrote:
>
> > In concept this is remarkably like a place near Bourg St.Maurice except
> > that that is constructed on a steep hillside in a forest and you have to
> > do all your safety yourself <snip> You'd never get it past the safety
> regs here.
>
> There's nothing in any regulations to prevent it here, its basically just
> indoor via ferrata. I guess what may cause a problem is getting insurance
> (with economically feasible premiums).
Sorry, I was lumping insurance and safety together. The BStM one is
outdoors and more like an adventure playground 30 feet up in the trees.
> It would mean you'd have to require the customers either to be 'competent'
> or keep them under close supervision though. This is only the same as for
> the climbing, but unlike the climbing experienced people aren't the target
> market.
Indeed. The BStM staff are very good at equipping and briefing you and
then they follow their group round on the ground. I have seen them
climbing up to rescue people who get into difficulties. The setup does
cater for complete novices (the course gets harder and higher as you go,
with bale-out points for the less able).
Sam
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 16:15 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
Sam Wilson wrote:
> Indeed. The BStM staff are very good at equipping and briefing you and
> then they follow their group round on the ground. I have seen them
> climbing up to rescue people who get into difficulties. The setup does
> cater for complete novices (the course gets harder and higher as you go,
> with bale-out points for the less able).
That sounds really good. :o)
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 12:56 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
Thanks for that, would never have known about it otherwise!
I think lack of publicity is what killed the last iteration of it too.
Z
"Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:f2v708$csv$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk...
> Previously known as the Adventure Centre, renamed the Edinburgh
> International Climbing Arena after the takeover by Edinburgh Leisure,
> this is finally opening to the public after sundry delays on Friday
> 25th May. It has in fact been open to climbers with restricted
> facilities and hours for several weeks, and is now closed pending the
> final official opening.
>
> Their official web site also seems to be afflicted with delays, since
> it doesn't yet know about this opening :-)
>
> [externer Link]
>
> The details can be found in this Edinburgh Leisure newsletter, which
> seems to be accurate apart from the spelling of "renovations: :-)
>
> [externer Link]
>
> Note that that this opening weekend of 25-28 May features all sorts of
> special fun events for kids, which some grown ups may prefer to avoid
> :-)
>
> As a great enthusiast for this project I'm doing my bit to improve the
> publicity for this opening by advertising their Aerial Assault Course,
> previously known before Edinburgh Leisure's takeover as the Skyride of
> the Adventure Centre. Although it tends to be seen by parents as
> something for the kids, I've taken several older adults round it, all
> of whom have been surprised and impressed by how much they enjoyed it.
>
> So here you go, a photographic tour of the Aerial Assault:
>
> [externer Link]
>
> (It should be noted that although some of these photographs were taken
> on the Skyride itself (as it then was), taking a camera on the Aerial
> Assault would require special permission and prior arrangement which
> would probably require some attestation of both photographic and rope
> access skills, and the new "improved safety facilities" probably means
> is no longer possible anyway :-)
>
> Apart from the generally poor publicity which this place has always
> suffered from, it has also suffered from poor public service
> access. The nearest bus for example is the Lothian Busses X48 which
> runs from Waverley to Ratho. You have to get off at Ratho Bridge and
> take a twenty minute walk along the unsignposted north side canal path
> to the place. It is to be hoped that by the time they re-open on the
> 25th May the stairs up from the canal path to the Arena will have a
> more encouraging signpost than the "Construction Site! Keep Out!
> Danger! Falling Rocks!" with which they have been encouraging canal
> path entrants to date :-)
>
> Bus access will improve, because they have surfaced the car park and
> built a bus stop in it, and have got agreement for the X48 service to
> be extended to it, but AFAIK there isn't yet a date for when that will
> start operating.
>
> Cyclists may like to know that you can cycle out to it on the Union
> Canal path from Fountainbridge in Edinburgh.
>
> --
> Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
> IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
> [[externer Link] ]
>
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 24.05.07 10:10 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
"Zimmy" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:f316lo$gt3$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Thanks for that, would never have known about it otherwise!
>
> I think lack of publicity is what killed the last iteration of it too.
To be fair, I received a tiny little leaflet with the Herald & Post
yesterday evening, which I would have probably thrown away with the rest of
the junk had I not recognised the picture from the website.
Z
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 23.05.07 14:08 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Previously known as the Adventure Centre, renamed the Edinburgh
> International Climbing Arena after the takeover by Edinburgh Leisure,
> this is finally opening to the public after sundry delays on Friday
> 25th May.
Looks good, I hope it gets more support this time around..
Sean
x
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 28.05.07 22:47 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
"Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:f2v708$csv$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk...
> Previously known as the Adventure Centre, renamed the Edinburgh
> International Climbing Arena after the takeover by Edinburgh Leisure,
> this is finally opening to the public after sundry delays on Friday
> 25th May. It has in fact been open to climbers with restricted
> facilities and hours for several weeks, and is now closed pending the
> final official opening.
And costs a bloody fortune! The problem is the taxpayer pays! Oh sorry,
forgot the Scots are paying for it!
As for International! A real propoganda exercise to say the bloody least!
--
Craven and Pendle Birds:
Bird watching in and around Craven & Pendle.
North Yorkshire and East Lancashire.
[externer Link]
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 29.05.07 10:48 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
"C R Fishwick" <crfishwick@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5c0tciF2u7bd7U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:f2v708$csv$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk...
>> Previously known as the Adventure Centre, renamed the Edinburgh
>> International Climbing Arena after the takeover by Edinburgh Leisure,
>> this is finally opening to the public after sundry delays on Friday
>> 25th May. It has in fact been open to climbers with restricted
>> facilities and hours for several weeks, and is now closed pending the
>> final official opening.
>
> And costs a bloody fortune! The problem is the taxpayer pays! Oh sorry,
> forgot the Scots are paying for it!
>
> As for International! A real propoganda exercise to say the bloody least!
Why not International? I attended a couple of World Championship events at
Ratho before its redevelopment.
I take it you've spoken out against Wembley, the Millennium Dome and the
Olympic Games as well.
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 29.05.07 12:06 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
In article <465be863$0$32220$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
"Duncan Gray" <try@not.to> writes:
> Why not International? I attended a couple of World Championship events at
> Ratho before its redevelopment.
How does having the word `International' in the title help?
> I take it you've spoken out against Wembley, the Millennium Dome and the
> Olympic Games as well.
All three were, are, or will be a complete and utter waste of money, time,
and effort, certainly.
--
SAm.
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 29.05.07 12:31 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
Sam Nelson wrote:
> How does having the word `International' in the title help?
Not particularly, but OTOH I can't see it's a /problem/. It is of a
size and (so I' told) standard so as to be an international benchmark of
the type, so why go to the trouble of moaning about using the word?
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk [externer Link]
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 29.05.07 13:12 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
In article <5c2dngF2ur8onU2@mid.individual.net>,
Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> writes:
> Sam Nelson wrote:
>
> > How does having the word `International' in the title help?
>
> Not particularly, but OTOH I can't see it's a /problem/. It is of a
> size and (so I' told) standard so as to be an international benchmark of
> the type, so why go to the trouble of moaning about using the word?
It carries with it an air of self-importance, pomposity, and positive spin.
--
SAm.
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 29.05.07 13:17 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
Sam Nelson wrote:
> In article <5c2dngF2ur8onU2@mid.individual.net>,
> Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> writes:
>> Sam Nelson wrote:
>>
>>> How does having the word `International' in the title help?
>> Not particularly, but OTOH I can't see it's a /problem/. It is of a
>> size and (so I' told) standard so as to be an international benchmark of
>> the type, so why go to the trouble of moaning about using the word?
>
> It carries with it an air of self-importance, pomposity, and positive spin.
But where you've got something that size with that much decent effort
behind it it's entirely possible that it's /actually/ important, rather
than deluding itself. In which case it isn't pompous, it's earned.
I won't comment further, not having played there, but assuming it's a
jumped up attempt to make something crappy sound better than it is does
not, AFAICT, seem justified.
And it's stupid to /undersell/ yourself.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk [externer Link]
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 29.05.07 14:13 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
In article <5c2gf1F2v98v7U1@mid.individual.net>,
Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> writes:
> And it's stupid to /undersell/ yourself.
Oh, I dunno. My relatively limited experience of rock-climbers (my power-
weight ratio is all wrong for it---I blame my grandparents) leads me to
conclude that the ones that make a fuss are the wasters, and the ones that
don't are worth listening to.
This isn't a bad rule of thumb is other walks of life either.
--
SAm, MAn In SHAck.
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 30.05.07 10:22 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
In ed.general Sam Nelson <sam@ssrl.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <5c2gf1F2v98v7U1@mid.individual.net>,
> Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> writes:
>> And it's stupid to /undersell/ yourself.
> Oh, I dunno. My relatively limited experience of rock-climbers (my power-
> weight ratio is all wrong for it---I blame my grandparents) leads me to
> conclude that the ones that make a fuss are the wasters, and the ones that
> don't are worth listening to.
That's true of some climbers, but there have always been a surprising
number of highly articulate eccentrics among climbers. Doug Haston for
example was famously and characteristically dour, but some of his
climbing partners were rather good writers as well as climbers. If you
hang around on mountain summits you'll meet many more intellectuals,
academics, artists, writers, etc. than you will in your local
gymnasium.
With respect to the Edinburgh International Climbing Arena, however,
it was designed to attract custom from a much wider clientele than
just the old-time bothy-dossing rock tigers. It has office conference
and shop space to sell, and a variety of gym-type equipment for
fitness and other training, in addition to which the modern indoor
climbing wall has also created its own specific enthusiasts and sport.
One of the interesting ideas of the original founders was to exploit
these "more than just an indoor climbing wall" aspects in order to
finance a much grander facility than just a bigger and better indoor
climbing wall.
IMHO they succeeded. It *is* impressively grand, enough so to have
attracted a number of international events and fully deserve the
"international" in its name.
--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[[externer Link] ]
|
|
| |
| Zurück zur Übersicht |
|
Edinburgh International Climbing Arena (EICA) at Ratho | | Bergsteiger beim Bergsteigen | 19.06.07 23:48 Uhr |
|
|
| Auf diese Nachricht antworten! |
Diese Nachricht wurde nicht archiviert, da der Autor dies nicht wünscht.
Beiträge mit <X-No-Archive: Yes> werden nur einen Monat lang hier angezeigt. |
|
|
